Today’s Spill the Tea is a special edition. Special because my wife is joining me but also special because it’s recorded audio instead of written word. This was a lot of fun to do so I’d love to hear from you if you enjoy this format and if I should do this more often.
Until next time!
Conversation Transcript
MICHE
Wow it's been a while since we've done a podcast together and this is not even a podcast!
KIM
Yeah the two of us, two microphones it's been a minute right?
MICHE
Hey hammasje! For the record people i call Kim hammasje, that's too long of a story we're not gonna go in there. It's a cute one, one day, y'all. One day, y'all. How are you doing, though?
KIM
I am doing really good.
MICHE
Why are you doing good?
KIM
Because it's our anniversary.
MICHE
Our anniversary?
KIM
We have been married for 12 years. 12 whole years.
MICHE
I feel that's a very adult thing to say.
KIM
We're starting to be the longest-running marriage in groups when we say that out loud.
MICHE
Right? I also am regularly the oldest. Oh, boy. Unless you're Mary and you're listening to this. Mary's older. Anyway, you may be wondering what's going on. because this is a Spill the Tea kind of week. But instead of writing Spill the Tea, we wanted to record Spill the Tea and bring some concepts, make some concepts a little bit more tangible.
KIM
Yeah, it's kind of fun to go over theoretical and global issues. But this is really something that is more everyday life and affects everything around us.
MICHE
So because it's our anniversary, the theme of today's post will be our marriage on display for all of you to see. But in the last couple of weeks, I've been writing on a concept called foundationalism. And I agree, y'all. I chose a wrong term. Foundationalism already has uses. But when I say foundationalism, I mean something else.
So in case you haven't read anything or you're not a paid subscriber, when I use the term foundationalism, foundationalism asks us always to be skeptical of what people are claiming. And it asks us to first examine if we even agree with the foundational or underlying argument.
KIM
That is a lot. And you know a lot of fancy words. But do you have an example? I think you do.
MICHE
Are you saying that I'm too, too nerdy to what's the word?
KIM
That or you know. you like you like to talk. Which is no shame no shame in that game
MICHE
I don't think I like to talk I like attention and I can get attention by talking
KIM
I mean I wasn't going to be the one to say that
MICHE
Okay I gave this example in the newsletter a couple of weeks ago- what if I say Norway is the best vacation destination what would you say?
KIM
I would say that is a bold statement.
MICHE
What do you mean a bold statement? Obviously, there's nothing better than mountains and hiking. Therefore, Norway has both. It's the best vacation destination.
KIM
But I also like an ocean breeze. I would prefer to do a small hike that ends in wine, for instance.
MICHE
Yeah, I think you're incorrect. Norway is just the best vacation destination because hiking is the best thing ever.
KIM
And this is usually the part in a conversation when I'm out.
MICHE
But you can obviously see in this example that we have a definition problem. Kim likes to, you know, chill on the beach, do a small hike, get something to drink. And that is her definition of a perfect vacation. I know that Norway has some beaches, but it's probably not the best place for you.
KIM
I don't know if they go out in the bikinis that often.
I don't know.
MICHE
I don't know. I wonder if Oslo has a nice... So if there's any Norway listeners, please let me know if Oslo has a good beach scene.
KIM
So obviously that's a little bit of a silly example, but you've written a few times about a couple of other examples, right?
MICHE
Yeah. I like to touch on hot topics and kind of tone them down a little bit to depolarize them. For example, abortion is a big one, right?
KIM
Yeah, absolutely.
MICHE
Because I don't think that Democrats and Republicans are talking about the same thing. I came here 12 years ago and I saw the abortion debate. And 12 years later, I still don't understand why it's such a big deal in America.
KIM
Yeah, yeah. Well, if you take the hot button part of it, the morality of it aside for just a second.
MICHE
Let's do that.
KIM
I think there's definitely a narrative on both sides, right? Who are you trying to kill, women or babies?
MICHE
Right. And that's exactly it. A Democrat says, stay off my body. Women's health first. You're trying to kill women. That's quite the accusation to make towards Republicans. And Republicans call Democrats baby killers.
KIM
And have some pretty hefty visuals most of the time to go along with that statement as well.
MICHE
Yeah, exactly. Super tangent. But I advise you to Google what an eight-week-old fetus looks like. And I can assure you that the top 21 pages that you will see are not actually how an eight-week fetus looks like. I should write about that one day.
KIM
You should. But it's a great example of where two seemingly entirely opposing sides to anything, in this case an issue, a social issue, can have these stances and these statements and these narratives that feel like we're talking about the same thing, but are we talking about the same thing?
MICHE
Exactly. I think Democrats and Republicans need to talk with each other.
KIM
Yeah, exactly. Getting back to the idea of foundationalism with abortion, what you're saying, I think what you're saying is when you're called to be skeptical of what the other person is claiming, when people are saying women want to do this, women want to do this in the third trimester, etc.
It's good to be skeptical of how people are saying and what people are saying these things. And similarly, the other way around, when someone says all women faced with a difficult situation would choose to have an abortion. That's a hard statement to tackle, but I have, on an acquaintance level, known several people who have gotten really bad news really late and wanted to see a pregnancy through. I think that when you're talking about these women want a third trimester abortion or these women don't know, but they know that they would want one if they were in that situation, It's talking about the same thing, but they're not talking about the same thing.
And I think, you know, to kind of wrap this up in a much too neat bow for such a nuanced topic, what you're really talking about is that the woman in each example gets to make that decision.
MICHE
That's right.
KIM
So now we're at the foundation.
MICHE
You're saying the foundation in this case is who gets to make the decision.
KIM
Exactly. Yeah. And then I feel like, I mean, I would hope that more productive conversation can happen.
MICHE
We can at least start with that conversation. Because I assume that some people say, no, the government should make that decision. And some people would say, no, women themselves should make that decision. But at least let's start with that conversation. Yeah.
KIM
Exactly.
MICHE
And that's what foundationalism is about. To find out the foundation, what is the underlying beliefs that we have there? Yeah. And start going from there.
KIM
Moving off from that, because that obviously is a very personal topic that a lot of people feel very close to. Let's move on to another one that people take very personally.
MICHE
Which one's that?
KIM
So you've also written before on the idea of foundationalism when it comes to inerrancy.
MICHE
Oh, yeah, that's a soapbox. Can we stay on for 60 minutes, you think? Yeah.
KIM
We've got to move this along. It's our anniversary.
MICHE
I want to spend time with you. That's right. It's two minutes. Two minutes. What do you think is the foundation in the inerrancy debates?
KIM
I think conversations often crafted around what the Bible says or scripture says this or people provide a Bible verse for something. And oftentimes it's coming from a certain place and that just depends on the person. But then when one person might provide a Bible verse and say, there, that's the answer.
And the other person doesn't accept that, doesn't receive it and says, that's absolutely not an answer. Then things escalate and get heated. And ultimately, you know, there's division. But foundationalism tells us to really think about what are you actually saying and where are you actually coming from? And when you think about inerrancy, most likely the person who would whip out a single Bible verse in answer to something is believes that the Bible is inerrant.
MICHE
That's right.
KIM
They believe it is God breathed quite literally, be it in the dramatic fashion of suddenly ink appeared on paper. I don't know if there are people out there that think that, but maybe. That's fine. Or God embodied the earthly writers and directed what they wrote.
That whole kind of range of these Bible verses have come some form directly from God. And then the person who might be skeptical or say that is not an answer may be coming from a different direction. The Bible is God inspired.
His followers were so enamored with this faith that they found that they wanted to write about it. They were human with human thoughts, but with a love for God. And they decided to write that way.
MICHE
Or the other way around completely. Somebody think it's completely bullshit. Yeah.
KIM
Yeah, I guess I stuck to people of faith because when you start getting into...
MICHE
Yeah, but I'm a person of faith and I absolutely... don't believe in inerrancy so if somebody says to me trans people go to hell because the bible says so not only do i disagree with that the bible says it obviously i'm a theologian i can make that case but it's also irrelevant because even if the bible would say that it would not matter
KIM
And thus, you just got to the foundational part of it all. Once you acknowledge, okay, your Bible and my Bible, we're coming from different places.
MICHE
That's right.
KIM
The issue is inerrancy. Then you can decide, I would rather have that conversation or I would rather not have a conversation.
MICHE
In my case, I'd rather not have a conversation at all because I don't think it matters. But in many people's cases... They should probably take a couple of steps back before talking about clobber verses. They should probably ask the question, do you think the Bible has any authority to speak on if gay people are loved by God or not loved by God?
KIM
Exactly.
MICHE
That is all very heady, theoretical, political, and theological, even though objectively Norway is the best vacation destination.
KIM
You'll just have to take me there with you.
MICHE
I'd say, how does this work more tangible? How can we view this in our daily life?
KIM
Yeah, well, it feels scripted. But in fact, I think over the last 12 years that we've been married, certain things have come out that just end up being under this umbrella of foundationalism that has helped us immensely in our ability to communicate with each other.
So talking about foundationalism and talking about this concept of are we talking about the same thing?
MICHE
Are you going to say it?
KIM
We remembered a little story.
MICHE
What is this little story?
KIM
About when we were first married. And you all get to see that Lana is well written and eloquent and just great with words. That she is. And she always has been. However, let's just set the stage.
MICHE
Let's set the stage.
KIM
So we were getting ready to go out somewhere. It was not an errand or something because we were definitely being intentional, getting dressed, getting ready to do something. And I come out of the bathroom and I said something along the lines of, how do I look? Is this good? And what did you say to me?
MICHE
I said that your face looks fat.
KIM
Now if you now if you're listening and you gasped a little bit you maybe can picture my expression on my face when she said that so were we talking about the same thing i luckily immediately said i don't think you just said what you meant to say and what did you actually mean?
MICHE
I mean that you had an oily face, it's like there was some shine. And I was like, yeah, you asked me how to look. That's how you look.
KIM
Yeah.
MICHE
I did not mean to say that you physically have a fat face.
KIM
And then it became something that I appreciated because it's, you know, what is that politeness thing? If someone can fix it in the next 10 seconds, tell them. I was like, yeah, I want to know that. I can fix that before we go out. And we stayed married for the next 11 years.
MICHE
That's right. Yeah. But again, that's a silly example of us trying to figure out, hey, are we really talking about the same thing? But we have some examples that were pretty big, like my coming out journey for you. Like, I have such a vivid memory of sitting down with you. And I just shared everything.
You got to know something about me. I share a lot. I have to do that compulsively, which is a story for another time. But so I share. I want to know. I wanted Kim to know everything about me.
KIM
When we first met.
MICHE
When we first met. So I told her about my adventures. Uh...
KIM
In the single world?
MICHE
In the single world? Let's put it that way. I told her about diagnoses, like pathologies that I've been diagnosed with over the years. I told her that I'm trans.
KIM
Here's where... Our experiences diverge. And I really like the Dutch word that I'm going to butcher, ‘beleving’.
MICHE
That is immaculate. That was very good.
KIM
Oh, thank you. I'm not going to try again. Which basically is that a person's perception, how they believe they experienced something.
MICHE
Mm-hmm.
KIM
And my experience, and perhaps I was just focusing, but in this hefty conversation around some things that you also didn't mention that you've talked about before but we don't have to get into that were pretty hard for you to share and hurt my heart to hear that you had been through, I actually in that conversation realized don't recall much of anything mentioned about transition. I have a fragment of a memory of you saying that you had later in, you know, a few years later, you saying, Something in passing, I saw a psychologist and that was happening at some point. So that's kind of your coming out 1.0 in our relationship.
MICHE
Exactly. And why we mentioned this is that my foundation was that Kim knew somehow that I'm trans. And your foundation was what? It was, you know...
KIM
I think, too, we didn't have the words that we have now. So I'm sure you said I'm sure you were explicit and I'm sure you used words that defined exactly what you were talking about. But I wouldn't have known those words exactly. So my my takeaway was, oh, amongst the very tumultuous journey of your life until now, you at one point questioned your gender. Yeah. And that's not on the top of your mind anymore.
MICHE
Right. So imagine that I believe that I was forthcoming to Kim and Kim thought that at some point I questioned my gender. Fast forward to three and a half years ago now.
KIM
Mm-hmm. We are in our apartment.
MICHE
What did I ask you?
KIM
I come around the corner, super excited to have a lunch date with you because my mom is in town watching the babies. And you just kind of look at me with a kind of shell-shocked expression in the kitchen and kind of just say, would you still love me if I cut off my penis?
So you can imagine. Her foundation was, this is probably going to be hard, but at least she kind of knows what I'm talking about. I'm coming from the perspective of, oh my goodness. What is happening?
MICHE
What are you talking about? Can we take a couple of steps back? Yes.
KIM
I think actually my initial response was that you were being... hypothetical i mean maybe not the would you still love me if i'm a worm but along the lines of along the lines of people do do this would you still love me um yeah
MICHE
In a very like hypothetical way yeah yeah that was not the case I remember so well I had a super vivid dream where I finally came out to everyone. I came out to you, even to my biological parents for some reason, to your parents. And it was hard. The dream was not trying to romanticize anything or so.
I'm talking about my dream as if my dream is an author. I just remember waking up. Oh why do I'm why am I crying right now I just remember waking up and thinking oh shit I didn't come out in real life I only came out in my dream and everybody was kind of cool with it but it's not real like the Lizzie McAlpine song Ceilings
KIM
Oh highly recommend and yeah it's a I'm imagine it was a devastating feeling
MICHE
Yeah, I stuck with it for a couple of months. And then I had a conversation with you.
KIM
Yeah. So, fortunately, in this whole... Because visiting foundations, more often than not, I think... invites more questions but for us i think we've landed on a healthy people are different they remember things differently they take in things differently and we're fairly able to put that aside um because thankfully it's all worked out but
MICHE
If we would have stuck to with the whole thing you said you said this whatever then we would have never moved on we just had to accept that we had different experiences and perceptions perspectives ‘beleving’ and of certain situations in life when it comes to transness
But what we had to talk about was is there a path forward of me coming out and us staying a family
KIM
Yeah, and I think that was the next thing that under this kind of example of what are you actually trying to say would be the next thing that we kind of had to deal with in that time was when you said, you didn't say I want to transition, but I think you said I need transition.
To do something about this I don't want to be what I am anymore I think what you were saying correct me if I'm wrong was I just i want to change me right whatever
MICHE
We have right now is not working for me and i'm very curious to explore what that means yeah i have no clue what the end goal was and i still don't know what the end goal is today
KIM
Yeah, yeah. But I think maybe due to my lack of familiarity with transitions or the fact that it felt blindsiding to see our different experiences of the coming out story. What I heard was Lana wants everything to change. Our marriage, how we parent, where we live, how everything and so it was a painful couple of weeks because it's not that we realized that difference in foundation for a while it took a few weeks but it was
MICHE
Eventually freeing to figure out what are you actually trying to say mich um yes so
KIM
At that time in another life it was Michel I've been married to you for nine years what are you trying to say
MICHE
And I was like, I really want to stay married to you, whatever it takes. Can we explore together? And I think there was a sense of fear of like, do you want to change everything? Do you want to leave me, for you, right?
KIM
Yeah, I think there's this catastrophizing that you do when you don't know what is at the heart of something where you go, well, if you want to change this, you must want to change that. You must want to change everything.
MICHE
Everything and where will it end exactly okay but these are all examples of how our foundations have aligned we came to consensus our marriage is the most important thing our happiness in that marriage is the most important thing over the years you like me more when I'm confident and feel free in my body
KIM
The love that you have for yourself is radiating out
MICHE
But how do we deal with it when our foundations don't align?
KIM
It's a great question. And I think every relationship has these. And yeah, I think those are probably the hardest ones, right? Because it's when you don't have the answer, a single answer, it can feel tense. It can feel uncomfortable. Yeah. And you have to figure out how to negotiate that discomfort.
MICHE
Do you have an example?
KIM
I think because in this time of you coming out as transgender and taking your gender dysphoria seriously, as one does... There were just other things that were kind of brewing and stemmed off of it, kind of naturally joined the conversation. And one was that you really firmly decided that you are somewhere in the pansexual realm of identity.
I say it that way because everything is always being discovered for everybody all the time. So I won't pin you down, but...
MICHE
Yeah, and that's also not necessary. But I think you're touching on something important because I was forced to deal with things like I'm a woman now. And I love my wife. Does that mean that I'm a lesbian? First, I felt imposter syndrome. Like, do I get to be a lesbian?
KIM
Yeah. Am I going to be let in the club?
MICHE
Right? Is there like a TERF association to unlesbianized Miche or so?
KIM
I love your verb choice.
MICHE
Yeah, that's great. but I am not a lesbian I always identified as bi another one of those things that I think I just assumed that you knew let me say it like this I think when you heard me say I believe there's a lot of people are bisexual you heard me say a lot of other people except you Miche are bisexual
KIM
Yeah, that's exactly how I took it. Because I had all of these constraints. You're with me. I've never seen you date anyone who wasn't a woman. So you must not be talking about you.
MICHE
Yeah, yeah. And I think I was not ready to come out, come out, come out. Because it wasn't pressing at the moment. But I definitely saw myself as bisexual. And I feel like we have better language right now. Pansexual feels correct. Even though I'm more strictly Neptunite leaning, pansexual feels correct.
And it definitely was flown out of my... Flew out of my... What is the English word for this? Emanated out of my transition journey.
KIM
Yes. Yeah. And then, I mean, how did you perceive my identity? Yeah.
MICHE
It was very hard. I don't think our foundations aligned there at all. I was very afraid because you were strictly not lesbian.
KIM
That's a kind way of saying I was aggressively straight.
MICHE
Aggressively straight is probably a correct way to say things. You've never... Okay, we gotta say this out loud because I'm so used to people exploring their sexuality in their lives. Most of my friends growing up did. And you didn't. It was hard for me to understand.
And I was like, okay, you are so aggressively straight. How can you stay with me? And in the first two, two years, you were not interested at all in coming, coming to terms with what you are, what your sexuality is.
KIM
Yeah. Yeah. And I think for myself, I didn't even realize the kind of biases I had. Um, Because I was out there in conversations pushing back on people when they said, well, if they're gay, they must be a pedophile. I was pushing back on that because I was like, one does not mean the other. Right, right.
But in a much more, you know, less volatile example, I heard I'm pansexual and I thought, you must feel you're missing out.
MICHE
Right, right.
KIM
You must want to be with other people because, you know, you've never gotten to fully experience that.
MICHE
Yeah, I think that's such an interesting bias. And I'm also I also think that it's such a common bias and that people are very uncomfortable to say out loud that they have that bias.
KIM
Yeah, it's not comfortable for me to say because if I get out of my feelings and I think about it, I'm like nobody is going around going, well, because I could be with everyone, I'm going to be with everyone regardless of anyone's feelings or whatever. That's just not something that happens. But for some reason, I think I'm not alone in that that's the first thought people who don't identify the same way might feel.
MICHE
Yeah, yeah.
KIM
So we were coming from different perspectives and different identities because I definitely don't at this point say I am pansexual.
MICHE
Nor do you have to be pansexual.
KIM
Is the point, right? So what we had to come from those two different foundations, examine them and say, here's where you're mishearing what I'm trying to say. Here's where I'm actually coming from. And for us, it was, okay, we hold these different identities. We may or may not even hold different perspectives on sexual identity in general.
And what do we do with that? So there's still somewhat of a happy ending, I would say.
MICHE
Oh, I love this ending because we are still together.
KIM
Yes. So we decided, you know what? Those identities might be different, but we align with each other. Yeah. And are fully satisfied. Yeah.
MICHE
And also, I needed to do it quickly. I needed to process it quickly. I need to know, okay, early in my transition, immediately, I needed to name I am pansexual. And you did not.
KIM
No. So that was another foundational thing. I think you have this natural self-discovery, track down the information way about you. And you've said that it's hard for you to understand that people don't have that. And I don't. I have the ability to do those things, but in my own time and in my own space.
And it really has to kind of click for me that that's something that I want to do.
MICHE
Yeah. Which funnily enough, that's when your colleague asks you, hey, I'm trying to categorize our business. Can I put you down as queer?
KIM
She was very respectful. She said, we are obviously a LGBTQ safe space, but they make me say, do any of your staff identify with the community? So do you want me to put that for you? Knowing that you were at that point a year and a half into transition, we were still married.
And that was kind of, that was my click moment of like, okay, If I say no, that feels disingenuous. If I say yes, the responsibility is on me to take that seriously because that is something that people who also identify as queer will take seriously when they learn that about me.
So it's important to at least start that thought process.
MICHE
Yeah, I think staying with your trans wife is a very queer thing to do.
KIM
Turns out. Turns out.
MICHE
I feel like Spill the Tea needs to be like this more often.
KIM
It's fun. I get to come in now because I'm not a theologian.
MICHE
Well, kind of like a theologian. You even have part of a seminary degree.
KIM
That semester, that single semester was eye-opening.
MICHE
Thanks for gracing us with your presence today.
KIM
Well, it's not a big ask because I love talking to you.
MICHE
Well, I love being talked to. I don't know if we're going to do this ever in the future. But happy Sunday. Happy Spill the Tea Anniversary Edition. Until next time.
KIM
Thanks for having me.
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